Monday, June 26, 2017

On "True Scale" Primaris Marines

Ok, I've complained enough lets dive in.

So how different in size are the Primaris marines.  Well, in order to 3d model bits I've done a lot of random measurements on marines over the years. I do this with a drafting caliper and micrometer.  Generally I round these to usable measurements in my modeling software.  I'm nerdy enough to have done this on all the marks of armor and types of armor from various generations of 40k miniatures.  But here I'll isolate my measurements to the most common marine armor (in my collection at least) Mk 6.

So here are my measurements from Mk 6.  These are from newer 40k models, specifically the blood angels release from 7th edition.  Older models are mostly the same with a bit thinner upper legs and arms.

Traditional Space Marine
Head = W 8.5mm x D 8mm x H 7mm (head only) 9.1mm (with neck)
Torso = W 12mm (shoulders) W 9mm (waist) x D 10mm (chest) D 11.5 (with pack mount) x H 10mm (waist to neck) - collar 3mm
Legs  = Thigh W 4.5mm x D 5mm x H 8mm (hip to knee)
Lower W 6mm x D 7mm x H 8mm (knee to ankle) [mk 6 legs]
Foot W 5mm x D 9.5mm x H 4mm
Arms = Upper W 4.5mm x D 4.5mm x H 7.5mm (Shoulder to elbow)
Lower W 4mm x D 4mm x H 5mm (elbow to wrist)
hand W 3.5mm x T 2mm x L 3.5mm (from wrist)
Fingers L 3.5mm W 1mm
Backpack = W 18mm x D 6.5mm to 4mm x H 15mm
Shoulder Pad = W 10mm x D 6mm x H 8mm thickness 2mm border 1mm
Powerfist = W 9mm x T 5.5mm x L 9mm
        -  Fingers L 7mm W 1.8mm
Bolter = W 3.5mm x L 18mm x H 11mm
Plasmagun = W 4mm x L 22mm x H 8mm
Meltagun = W 3.5mm x L 24mm x H 8mm
Bolt PistolW 3.5mm x L 12mm x H 8.5mm
Sword = W 4.5mm x D 1.5mm x L 31mm hilt W 6.5mm D 2.5mm L 10mm
AxeW 12mm x D 3mm x L 28mm pole W 2.5mm L 17mm
HammerW 18mm x D 3mm x L 32mm pole W 2.5mm L 24mm
Spear = W 7mm x D 4mm x L 51mm pole W 2.5mm L 30mm

Note: limb measurements are done from Joint center to joint center

So here is my measurements for the new primaris marines. These are from the Dark Imperium set, when GW releases stand alone kits there might be some variations.  Wherever possible I compared multiple figures to get the measurements averaged.  Some items not in the kit are estimated based on general size comparisons of existing parts but I'll talk about that later.

Primaris Space Marine (MK 10 Default armor mostly)
Head = W 8mm x L 8mm x H 7.2mm (head only) 8.5mm (with neck)
Torso = W 11mm (shoulders) W 9mm (waist) x D 13mm (chest) D 14.5mm (with pack mount) x H 12mm (waist to neck) - collar 2mm
Gravis W 13mm (shoulders) W 18mm (waist) x D 22mm (chest) D 18mm (with pack mount) x H 13mm (waist to neck) - collar 3mm
Legs  = Thigh W 6mm x D 6.5mm x H 9mm (hip to knee)
Lower Leg W 7.2mm x D 7.2mm x H 9mm (knee to ankle) [mk 10 legs]
Foot W 5.3mm x D 11mm x H 5mm
Gravis W 7mm x D 7mm
Arms = Upper W 4.5mm x D 4.5mm x H 7.5mm (Shoulder to elbow)
Lower W 4.5mm x D 4.5mm x H 5.5mm (elbow to wrist)
hand W 3.8mm x D 2mm x L 3.5mm (from wrist)
Fingers L 4.5mm W 1.2 mm
Gravis W 5.5mm x D 5.5mm
Backpack = W 19mm x D 7mm to 4mm x H 16mm
Shoulder Pad = W 11mm x D 6.5mm x H 8.5mm thickness 2.2mm border 1mm
Gravis Shoulder W 11.5mm x D 6.5mm x H 8mm thickness 2.5mm Chevron 2mm border 1.5mm
Powerfist = W 9mm x T 6mm x L 9mm
        -  Fingers L 7mm W 1.8mm
Bolt Rifle = W 3.5mm x L 23mm x H 11mm [extended 3.5mm @ front]
Plasmagun = W 4mm x L 31mm x H 14mm
Meltagun = W ~3.5mm x L ~28mm x H ~11mm
Bolt PistolW 3.5mm x L 12.5mm x H 8mm
Sword = W 4.5mm x D 1.5mm x L 38mm hilt W 6.5mm D 2.5mm L 12mm
AxeW ~14mm x D ~3mm x L ~32mm pole W 2.5mm L ~20mm
HammerW ~21mm x D ~4mm x L ~36mm pole W 2.5mm L ~28mm
Spear = W ~8mm x D ~4mm x L ~60mm pole W 2.5mm L ~38mm
Note: limb measurements are done from Joint center to joint center

So generally the Primaris limb parts are scaled on average by 122% this varies from 112% to 133%. Usually this works out as 133% to the length while 112% to the width.  But this really isn't applied uniformly.  The scaling is really done to make the marine feel bigger without it being scaled to much.  If the marine was uniformly scaled you'd end up with it feeling the same unless it was sitting next to a classic marine.

The torsos are roughly the same, just taller and ever so slightly thicker.  The chest and back are bulked out a tiny bit. Cut the belt off of a classic torso and add a spacer to add height. Then a thin layer of plasticard between the halves could easily make a classic torso thicker to fit Primaris if you wanted.

Arms are roughly the same length so you won't get a lot of problem using the old arms. If you have to change them a tiny bit of length is added to the lower arm. You can do this by adding a spacer to the wrist or maybe just extending the upper arm below the shoulder pad seat.

There are minor tweaks to the shoulder pad size.  This strikes me as odd, the shoulders, particularly on Gravis armor and Inceptor squads, are a bit flatter than classic models but otherwise unchanged.  What I could make out and measure, in spite of the way these crap marines are molded, is that the seat for the shoulder pads look roughly the same. If anything they might be slightly smaller than old marine arms by a few nanometers. We'll see more when GW makes proper Primaris rather than crap marines.  

Legs are trickier.  Pretty much every part is longer.  Adding spacers to the thighs is easy enough on most older legs.  The lower legs tends to be more problematic with the knee pads and decorative elements like eagles and such. The feet are also taller which is interesting. You actually see more of the foot than with old marines. I'd probably cut off the foot and add a plasticard plate on top.  This is mostly in keeping with how true scaling is normally done. Though if i was trying to convert something into primaris marines my goal would be to preserve the lower leg armor so I'd avoid the traditional lower leg spacer.  Instead I'd focus on adding to  the feet and a longer spacer in the thighs.

The new bolters are effectively the same as the old but stretched out by 133%.  you could easily add a 3.5mm spacer right before the barrel.  The plasmagun, sorry hellblaster?, its much longer and has a lot more detail but mostly just seems like the back of a melta gun bolted to a plasmagun. Bolt pistols are identically sized but new sculpts which is cool. Swords are slightly longer but the difference won't be really noticeable. I've estimated a bunch of other weapon sizes.  Mostly they've all grown 30% larger in length and width but their heft and hilts are the same.

Over all modifying primaris is going to be harder because they have a lot of greeblies added by default. They all have holsters, pouches, and crap added on. This is a bit of a disservice to the otherwise good armor design.  Though I will admit they do look more like active military with those addons.

I don't care for the Inceptor armor's added power cables on the legs and arms. It seems out of keeping with the otherwise cleaner design of the new armors.  I'll likely just remove them, because they are stupid.  Please, no one try and justify them to me. The armor the Inceptors are in is significantly bulkier than the normal Mk 10.  there is plenty of room to put the stupid cables between the 2 plates of the normal Mk 10 and the added armor.

Saturday, June 24, 2017

Ages Gone

It's been ages since I've been on here.  I've been dealing with a lot of health issues.  They've taken a tole on both my ability to model and my disposable income to support hobbies.  They are slowly resolving and I recently hit a point where I could get back into 40k again.

Yeah 40k.

So. I have to get something off my chest.

A friend got me a copy of the Dark Imperium boxed set and I've been looking forward  to it for a while.  First let me say I like 40k's plot advancing. I even sort of like the new Primaris crap they are doing.  I'm not a fan of "True Scale" marines but then I've never thought of my little figures as anything but little figures.  If I bitched that a space marine was the same height as an imperial guardsman I'd have to complain that no space marine could fit through the side door of a rhino.

I'm disappointed in the dark imperium boxed set. I like the rule book and the quality of packaging.  But these models piss me off.

GW tells us, Oh Primaris can work for any chapter. Except the Primaris kits in Dark Imperium lack possibility. You can't swap shoulder pads, you can't even swap weapons easily.  These are 7th generation Crap Marines. Not familiar with crap marines?

I've long used this term to describe marines from the old starter boxes. It started with the marines that had a gun just snap to their chest. Over the years the crap marines have gotten prettier but they are still crap.

I got into 40k to build my army not theirs.  A few months from now the real Primaris kits will come out I'm sure.  Hopefully they come with changeable torsos, shoulders, arms etc.  This molding shoulder pads to arms and affixing half the torso to the legs pisses me off.  Its hard enough to do after market bits for my chapter without this shit.

I wanted to get into age of sigmar but the same shit pissed me off.  The storm cast eternals are built the same way. you get 6 poses and that's it.  Fucking idiots. customization is one of the few things GW's models have always had going for them. They aren't the best quality anymore.  And while 8th edition rules seem better on paper time will tell if they will be crap like most other editions ended up.

Anyway, assuming the primaris shoulders are the same interior size as the old shoulders I'll make some new shoulders for them when they get real kits not crap marine kits.  I want me some blood angel intercisor sqauds.

Of note, the Intercisor shoulders are larger and flatter than traditional shoulders and the Gravis shoulder is even larger and flatter.  I think Gravis shoulders are actually wider than terminator shoulders.  My poor beleaguered termi's will sit on the shelf longer now.  I miss autocannon fire :(

Anyway the list of things that piss me off today...

* Two part leg design
* shoulder pads built into arms
* torso backs built into legs
* backpacks not being the same size as old backpacks
* the extra little peg on the bottom of the new heads
* bolt "Riffles" - so the old bolters didn't have riffled barrels to prevent their rocket propelled rounds from drifting off target? Cause you know, that's why riffles are called riffles right GW? Right?
* 300 different base sizes.
* any soldier in a brand new army being called an "Ancient" its supposed to feel new guys. Even just call them veterans would be tolerable.
* power swords being 4mm longer. they didn't need to get bigger.